The Mises View: “Healthcare and the Free Market” | Peter G. Klein

The Mises View: “Healthcare and the Free Market” | Peter G. Klein

Peter G. Klein explains how “Healthcare” would work, if it functioned in a free market. Klein is the Mises Institute’s Executive Director and Carl Menger Res…

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wresing says:

Oh you are obviously hurt. Before I reply I want to give you a hug.
*hugs
If it was commonly held property then me taking it would not be a robbery. You only claim robbery is a kind of violence to justify using physical force to hurt the “robber”. If the house you lived in was also mine, then walking in would not be force. We would be sharing. How about this: try not telling me what I think.
And calling me a rapist doesn’t bolster your argument, it only underlines my original critique.

CurtHowland says:

“I bet if someone took”
Golly, “if someone took”, so you propose that someone violently robs me FIRST.
Exactly. That is coercion. Self defense is a response, not an attack.
“if I walked into your home”
Golly, “if I walked”, you initiate the interaction against my will, then dare to call me wrong for asking you to leave?
How about this: A man puts his penis inside a woman, and you think she wrongly feels justified act aggressively toward that man. That is your argument, you rapist.

wresing says:

I bet if someone took your private property you would feel justified acting aggressively I bet if I walked into your home you would call the armed goons.

CurtHowland says:

“Private ownership justifies violence”
False.
Violence is not justified except in defense. That has nothing to do with private ownership of anything.
“but it wouldn’t be me”
The cowardice you demonstrate is pathetic. You’re willing to let other people be robbed and killed for your convenience, but you’re not willing to take responsibility for the actions your programs require.
When I defend myself, it is me. That’s called taking responsibility for my principles.

wresing says:

You put words in my mouth. Private ownership justifies violence just as much as public ownership. Both ownership models could end with a gun to your face, depending on the situation, but it wouldn’t be me. I would let the knife do the talking.

Anthony Mills says:

I wonder if the right to life isn’t more of a core question. Assuming those goods and services required to sustain life and the inability through personal and private means to pay for those services, does that make this a unique situation compared to other market activities? I feel it then breaks another principal in that I don’t believe any of us have the right to live if not through the voluntary actions of others to want or have the ability to sustain it.

LibertyDownUnder says:

I would like to hear more technical analysis of HOW free markets have already reduced costs effectively, rather than general definitions.
ReasonTV did a great video called “Oklahoma doctors VS Obamacare” that showed a bit of this. I would really like to see more.

CurtHowland says:

“You seem to have a wound deep inside”
Yes. It’s called being robbed by assholes who think that the ends justify the means, that their opinions are so perfect that they create obligations on me.
“I would be willing to help you for free, because I care about you”
Liar. You just wrote “a public good we collectively own” which entails your belief that it’s just fine to put a gun to people’s head to pay for something you want.
You don’t care about me, by your own words.

CurtHowland says:

“Curt, why the name calling?”
Awww, poor baby, did your widdle feelings get hurt?
Look. Politely put, fuck off.

captnhuffy says:

GREAT questions !! i hope you are asking them of yourself.

Why then would _you_ support, or argue for, coercive (Governmental) actions??

FACTS:
** ObamaCare is the very definition of Fascism **
** Being forced to sign up for ObamaCare… via the Individual Mandate.. is the definition of Tyranny **

Why would you support such HATE CRIMES & Tyranny against Americans?? … The very people that are the MOST compassionate & charitable country on the face of this planet !?!?!!!!

Adam Hoisington says:

Don’t bother feeding this guy with replies. This person claims to “care” about people so much that they would shove a gun in your face (in reality, employ someone else to shove a gun in your face, as your typical, cowardly, statist is wont to do) and force YOU to “care” about people, too.

There is no point in arguing morality with someone who is bereft of a consistent set.

wresing says:

Are these the fundamental realities I fail to grasp?
I am not proud nor do I put my personal power and trust into power-hungry hands. That is why I don’t charge for love. Are you arguing I should be more heartless and cruel? Are you justifying hate?
If someone intimidates you or uses coercive force or lacks a sense of fair play, or even murders, how should one respond? Not with hate I hope you agree.

captnhuffy says:

i am a volunteer too, of almost 7 years now, full time. i take care of my Mom too, in her 80’s.

I care so much & REFUSE to allow the Gov to Fuk this up.

The Gov is a cruel master… It is NOT kind! … It is NOT fair! … It has no MORALS !! … It doesnt even follow the laws of the land. It contributes NOTHING except: *Intimidation, *Coercive Force. Oh, and it MURDERS Babies world-wide.

Aren’t you *so proud* ; putting your personal power & trust into their power-hungry hands??

CurtHowland says:

“I don’t rely on goverment bureaucrats!”
That is a lie. Govt regulation of medicine puts bureaucrats in charge of medicine. Thinking this is a good idea is “rely on govt bureaucrats”, the thing you deny.
Pick one, please. Don’t be a hypocrite.
“How on earth can you pour such vitriol over somebody you don’t know”
Oh, but I do know your kind, who think their special interest is SO special and important that it’s justified to rob your neighbors to pay for it.
I know you very well.

wresing says:

First, I am not leftist, political, nor a woman. Second, I volunteer at a food bank every week aside from my anthropology work with the homeless in my city. Third, did you charge your mom to care for her? I hope not. That would be sick.

The reason I ask is because much of the debate over healthcare isn’t economic. The debate is about why we should care.

As for going John Galt I would join you only if you cared about me. The world may be cruel and heartless, but you don’t have to be.

captnhuffy says:

I am NOT the world’s parent.
I am NOT your parent.
I don’t take responsibility for your problems… whether they are self-created or not.
You can not force me to do so.
I’ll go John Galt first.

i am a father. i took care of my children as i saw fit. (and was Mr Mom to one of them). They came out great. I love them more than life itself.

Why aren’t you out there caring for the homeless – oh right – 95% of the are Men, and you don’t give a shit about Men, Only Leftist political stances.

VeryEvilPettingZoo says:

OK, I see why you think that’s relevant, but I still don’t think it is. Stratification of markets by price & quality acknowledges that the upper quality, and often even middle quality, markets are basically just that – markets where the quality of goods & services are not going to be a problem. The issue is the bottom end of the quality scale – what’s the minimally acceptable quality that the working class and poor will have? Market forces don’t correct that. Your facts didn’t address it.

wresing says:

Curt, why the name calling? You were damaged I can tell. Take a deep breath and think about why you hate. Ever hear of constructive criticism? Try it. And try to be more sensitive to people’s feelings.

wresing says:

For over 20 years I faced general price increases and I always ask the seller why. They always say the same things. And take the opposite case, price decreases. They always say they lower the price. They never say that the price decrease was forced by outside factors. They act like they are doing the buyer a favor. But what kind of favor is done by raising the price? You should try running a business. Then

wresing says:

Yeah I guess I should have said “relatively inelastic” and yeah I wasn’t really talking about checkups. I don’t get checkups at all. I was talking about the price of life extension technology. Watch the prices of cancer drugs to see what I mean. Watch the way the dying are priced out of the care market. You are right we do not value our lives infinitely. But let me ask you a question. If your daughter falls and skins her knee would you charge her to kiss it?

wresing says:

Morals and ethics and care cannot be forced. Was your mother a slave? Did she charge you for her services? Do you pay your lovers for sex? And did I get paid for sharing? You seem to have a wound deep inside. and I would be willing to help you for free, because I care about you.

wresing says:

If you are a mother of a free market fundimentalist send your son an invoice for his birth and rearing. Parents don’t normally do this because they care. Healthcare has the word care in it on purpose. Is care such a scarce resource around here that we must pay for it? If you teach, parent, practice medicine, or have sex you should not charge for it. It makes you a whore.

Em Chan says:

Awesome!  You asked the most important question – I asked the same question about law and enforcement once and received no retort 🙂

Jean Cencig says:

What about the doctor’s monopolies on practice? Is that free market?

Adam Hoisington says:

“But health care is not like any other good, since we put an intrinsic value on human life.”

This line right here makes me not understand why you think health services are different from other services. We put intrinsic value on ALL services provided, else they wouldn’t be provided at all. Yes, human life is the most valuable and irreplaceable “good” that we know of. This does not change the fundamental economics of things as compared to lesser valuable and more replaceable goods.

Sibyl Vane says:

I don’t rely on goverment bureaucrats! I’m not discussing my personal situation – unlike you, obviously, who seem unable to think abstractly for even a second.
How on earth can you pour such vitriol over somebody you don’t know over an extremely academic question as the nature of health care?
And it’s true that I’m privileged and sheltered and I’m not used to the company of such rude and horrid men like you.

CurtHowland says:

“I think if he understood what Rothbard understood he wouldn’t be endorsing anything to do with government.”
I think you mistake the purpose of the Ron Paul candidacy. There was no chance that he would win, it was an educational exercise to expose as many people as possible to the ideas of liberty.
So it is neither hypocrisy on Klein’s part, nor a lack of knowledge of Rothbard, since Rothbard himself thought Ron Paul was a great guy.

Adam Hoisington says:

I’m not sure what this obsession of those making comments, with the metaphysical differences between buying a car and buying healthcare services, is all about. Note the words Peter Klein uses here at 1:30: “…from a fundamental economics point of view…”

Obviously, no two products and services are the same. Otherwise, they’d just be one product/service. Pointing out their physical differences is irrelevant to the economics at hand and it isn’t a rebuttal to Dr. Klein’s points in this video.

CurtHowland says:

“If you can’t pay the plumber – you’ll just have an awful time not being able to take a shower”
Wow. You are not only clueless about medicine, you are clueless about plumbing as well.
That’s the wonderful thing about being an entitled pompous asshole, you can look down on everyone, even the people who do critical work for you like plumbers, and pretend to be above it all.

Adam Hoisington says:

Kelly, Read “The Market For Liberty” by Linda and Morris Tannehill.
eBook: bit(.)ly/WmtNZ
Audiobook: bit(.)ly/tTVd2j
Print: amzn(.)to/174mUHW

CurtHowland says:

“That’s why it’s impossible to rely on other people’s mercy or graciousness”
Ok, given this statement that you just made, why do YOU rely on the mercy and graciousness of politicians and govt bureaucrats?
“I think you lack depth and subtlety”
And I think you’re a raging hypocrite who can’t see past your own self-centered desire for free stuff paid for by other people, at gun point.
That’s the beauty of opinions, everyone has one.

Sibyl Vane says:

Ok! I rest my case! (“governmental fuckery” LOL!) But I thought Mises discusses the properties of health care as being the same as any other good. Not in particular the American system. Now I know the market is full of imperfections and they should be addressed – mostly through de-regulations. But health care is not like any other good, since we put an intrinsic value on human life. And that must be so, otherwise it’s a small step to the euthanasia programs of the nazis or the heart of darkness.

BTinHD says:

There no analysis of the influence of money from lobby groups into politics here. Obviously, big pharma etc have cornered the ‘market’. You also can’t compare any form of health care with computers. Computers are cheap because they are made using cheap labour in 3rd world countries.

Sibyl Vane says:

Exactly! “there’s no reason for a skilled surgeon…” That’s why it’s impossible to rely on other people’s mercy or graciousness. If you can’t pay – you’ll die in the gutter. (If you can’t pay the plumber – you’ll just have an awful time not being able to take a shower.)
I think you lack depth and subtlety if you cannot see different characteristics in different goods.
I am very much aware that the value of human life is a social construction – and of course we can rid ourself with that notion.

Lap Gong Leong says:

It is relevant. You seem to think that a free market in government will bring about inferior services and unequal healthcare for those who have less means to pay. I am saying that a government system is not always the great high standard that we are made to think. Therefore i outlined an example where the free market had fixed the flaws and heightened standards. Healthcare may have inelastic demand, but that does not impede price signals or any benefits of market liberalization.

VeryEvilPettingZoo says:

All very interesting factoids – and completely unrelated to my comments.

captnhuffy says:

Childish.
No ability to grasp the fundamental of reality….

Lap Gong Leong says:

huh, do you really think the AMA or the ACS or the independent agencies would die if we had a free market? Medical Schools were reformed by a bunch of rich people and an educator that fought against government incompetence. In 1910, the Illinois State Board came under fire by the Flexner report because most of the Illinois schools were that bad. Rockerfeller and Carnegie would fund the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, and the first 2 public health schools in america (Harvard/JHU)

sonotover says:

I appreciate the link, I’ll definitely be listening to that entire series.
My point is more a jab at Peter Klein personally since he appears on a list of academics that supported Ron Paul for president.

I think if he understood what Rothbard understood he wouldn’t be endorsing anything to do with government.

VeryEvilPettingZoo says:

God save us from the Free Market Utopians!
Someone explain to this nimrod that health care is different from cars & computers because poor people don’t DIE when they can’t afford cars & computes.
He even hints at stratification of markets by price & quality: surprising, as it’s a main observation destroying their simpleminded ideology. Come on, man, spell out your inevitable implications: Dr. Nick Riviera for the working poor, and for the destitute, “Open Heart Surgery for Dummies”, i.e. death.

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